Category talk:Determinant
Rename A determinant is an element that determines the nature of something. This would be descriptive of gameplay mechanics, not individual characters, so I believe a new category name is necessary. Any suggestions? --Bluerock (talk) 15:42, January 18, 2015 (UTC) Lets keep this category, because "determinant" is a an common name in games, which the players can decide if the character is going to die or not. Tesshu (talk) 19:03, January 18, 2015 (UTC) :Doesn't Drebin make it pretty clear the B&Bs die regardless of whether or not Snake personally kills them because they can't survive for long outside their suits? There's no actual indication any of them are still alive after MGS4 to justify putting them in this category. "Player determined" might be a better category name. 23:15, January 18, 2015 (UTC) ::Well, one could argue there's no actual indication any of them are dead after MGS4 either. Drebin's preface, "Word going round," isn't really that clear of a statement. Regardless, the player determines whether they live or die in the game itself, which would justify them being in this category. --Bluerock (talk) 00:52, January 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::"Characters of player-determined status" is what this category seems to be intended for. Kinda wordy but it's the best I can come up with. --Bluerock (talk) 00:52, January 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::In general when analysing fiction, if X is stated to be true and no data exists that X is not true, X is true. So the B&Bs are dead after 4 because the only character to say anything about it at all said they were going to die, barring any future data coming up. The player only really decides what they die of, same as whether, say, The End dies from Big Boss setting off his microbomb on the dock or the man himself detonating it after he gets tranquilised. :::::It's the same as how, when MGS3 was the only source of data on the matter, it would have been correct to say Sokolov was dead, because the only information we had was Volgin saying he was. There's no point assuming everything might be retconned at some later date unless you treat every single fact in the series as subject to possible revision, and that would require adding "or it might have been a dream" after almost every sentence in this wiki. :P 01:11, January 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Okay, first of all, we really don't know the B&Bs fates, since Drebin (the guy you're referring to) only said it was a rumor, which you know is usually ambiguous in its veracity until actually confirmed. Not to mention, unlike, say, the Cobra Unit, the player actually CAN alter their fates depending on how you take them out. Second of all, this also isn't even comparable to Sokolov who actually "died" in a cutscene (and even that was made ambiguous since the player was technically blind when that happened due to a bag being placed over Snake's head), while characters like Raikov (who, BTW, was actually hinted to have survived in the MGS3 Substance guide by Piggyback Guides, more specifically the Metal Gear Online section), Johnny Sasaki or his grandpa actually could be spared or killed without any consequence whatsoever (especially when most other major characters if you kill them they actually end up causing a game over), hence their fates are determinant. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:33, January 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::Yeah, but there is no established way for them to survive. If one character says "I heard X will happen," nobody says X will not happen, and no event requires X to have not happened, parsimony says that X is what happened. In particular, nobody seems concerned with Screaming Mantis after she's defeated (the FROGS seem to just ignore her) and there isn't really any way for Crying Wolf to live after being carried unconscious into the middle of a blizzard in a thin bodysuit. Especially in Wolf's case you'd need several gallons of purified bullshit for her to still be alive. ::::::::And I didn't mention the others, you might have noticed, I'm just saying the B&Bs shouldn't be here because all in-game evidence suggests that the player only decides what they die of, not if they die. ::::::::It's comparible to Sokolov in that they could be retconned into being alive, but currently there is no reason to suspect they are since the only person who said anything at all about it said they would die outside their suits in a matter of minutes. As with Volgin's "I guess he's dead" being all we had at that point. ::::::::Also I'm a little curious as to why four people where the only character who says anything about their fate says they die anyway are on this page, but not Meryl who can die or not die in MGS1. Speaks of someone prioritising headcanon over headthinking. ::::::::Also their fates are player-determined, "determinant" makes no sense at all in this context. 03:57, January 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::Actually, regarding Meryl, I just added her in. Completely forgot until just now that she was in fact player-determinate (and I remembered to add in Johnny Sasaki and his grandpa earlier today since they actually could be killed in MGS1 and MGS3, respectively, and at the very least Johnny Sasaki had canonically survived). As far as the B&Bs, one problem with the idea that they died is that in the scenes where they die, they basically are cast alight just like the FROGs when they die, and considering what happens to the FROGs (they become so charred that a mere touch would cause their corpses to disintegrate into ash), had any of the B&Bs (ESPECIALLY Crying Wolf) truly died, it would have been extremely obvious that they had indeed died in the following scenes (in Wolf's case, when that wolf brings her onto the wolf's back and carries her out of there, her body would have basically disintegrated by the time the dog tries to lift her up). And besides, do I really need to point out that Sniper Wolf managed to survive for at least an hour lying in wait for Snake in that area, not to mention Vulcan Raven and even Liquid Snake (and in the former case, he even fought Snake in an area that was explicitly stated to be directly underneath the permafrost layer, which is even colder than in the outside). If they could do that in very minimal clothing (heck, Sniper Wolf's cleavage was exposed, not to mention from the looks of it she isn't even wearing a bra), most likely she can survive that as well (and don't forget Solid Snake or Vamp). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 06:10, January 19, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::Sniper Wolf's cleavage wasn't out in the original version of the battle (it wouldn't surprise me in Twin Snakes, but she was in white arctic gear in the original) and she was established to have unusual endurance in the call with Naomi. Raven is established to be a mystical fucker who's done tribal endurance training (the ear pull, remember?). Liquid is outright superhuman, but he's not actually out in the cold for very long, plus Rex is on fire, which probably kept him pretty warm. Crying Wolf isn't really established to have any unusual powers of not freezing to death: she's just come out of a suit which is climate controlled and wet, and is a life support system, so she'd be royally fucked since her body probably isn't used to maintaining thermal equilibrium at all. :::::::::::In general it's not really clear how much of what happens when they're out of their suit "actually" happens (I doubt they're supposed to have done anything but vaguely chase Snake around), but Drebin only has one call regardless of how they're dealt with in which he speaks about them in the past tense. The fact that we don't see them disintegrate just means they either aren't dead yet when Snake leaves them or the triggering of it doesn't work under certain circumstances (we never see a FROG die from life support being withdrawn, so we don't really have a point of comparison). As with microbombs (The End's goes off when he's completely unaware of Big Boss at the docks, everyone else seems to trigger theirs manually), it's not enormously clear how that system works or what triggers it. Regardless, you can't really say it's player determined when the only person you can quote either way on the matter says it isn't, that's the heart of the problem. 07:36, January 19, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::It was out in her character outwork, though. And for the record, the mere fact that they both end up alight by blue flames would actually suggest they die the exact same way, meaning after they get burned, they are charred and then disintegrate upon touch (and please don't tell me the FROGs weren't on life support, the fact that they're even on SOP means they are indeed on life-support, especially considering what happened to them when SOP was destroyed, to say little about what happened to the members of both Praying Mantis AND Pieuvre Armement in Acts 1 and 2 respectively, some of which were explicitly stated to have died from heart attacks caused by this, and the joint Army/Marine task force and Rat Patrol 01 barring Johnny Sasaki (twice in the latter case).). ::::::::::::Also, various tenses doesn't really mean much regarding fates. Do I really need to remind you that in Peace Walker's beginning, Big Boss referred to the radio soldier in the past tense despite it being extremely obvious that the radio soldier isn't even dead, just out cold (Ignoring for just a moment that there was an Extra Op where you actually have to recruit him while he is still out cold, you must also remember that Big Boss knocked the soldier out with the Stun Rod, and not only was its voltage range stated to be 1.5 million volts in both the tutorial and its weapon description, but the former source also made very clear that 1.5 million volts is only enough to knock someone out cold, not kill them), not to mention Raiden referring to Solid Snake in the present tense constantly in Metal Gear Rising despite the fact that it should have been very obvious that Snake is six feet under (Metal Gear Solid 4 explicitly stated that Solid Snake had a full year left to live at best with his werner's syndrome alone, not to mention six months when taking into account his old FOXDIE malfunctioning and killing him last before Drebin interfered on the Patriots' behalf. And that's not even getting into the Japanese-exclusive Snake spirit sword DLC that all but outright states that he's dead in Rising itself.)? And for the record, Drebin stated in a cutscene "word on the street", before stating that they can't survive for long, which suggests it was only a rumor. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:52, January 19, 2015 (UTC) :The B&Bs are at least implied to be alive in the aftermath of the battle if tranqed/stunned (as Snake confirms with Octopus). One can speculate all day about whether Wolf froze to death, or the wolfdog took her to shelter, or whatever. And dead or alive, Drebin tells Snake that fighting him "cleansed" the B&Bs (or words to that effect), so who knows whether the "dying-outside-the-suit" rumor even pans out if they happen to survive the battle. The difference with the Cobras is that the result (death by microbomb detonation) is the same, and depicted in-game regardless of the player's actions. :To get back on topic, my point is that whatever may have happened offscreen/outside the game is irrelevant as far as this particular categorization is concerned. To be included here, characters must have their death or survival determined by the player within the confines of the game. But the "determinant" would be the player's actions, not the character itself, which is why I felt renaming the category was necessary to avoid confusion. --Bluerock (talk) 18:16, January 19, 2015 (UTC) :I am pretty sure that we can decide if the B&Bs are alive, i think by the time of MG Rising they are living normal lifes, and Kojima himself didn't confirmed their deaths at all. Tesshu (talk) 21:41, January 19, 2015 (UTC)